The Next Big Thing You Missed: How to Add Location Data to Your App Without Relying on Google


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Factual



There are curious kids, and then there are curiously curious kids.


At an early age, Gil Elbaz developed a seemingly inexplicable fascination with data, and this being the early 1980s, he couldn’t feed his immense curiosity without some good old fashioned hard work. He would hone in on a question like “What’s the coldest place in the world?” and his parents would pull out a massive reference book where he would dig for the answer. “One of the annoying things about a book is you can’t sort,” Elbaz says. “So you want to find the coldest place, but the only way to do that is flip through all the temperatures in a 100 page book.”


As a result, he acquired a healthy appreciation for spreadsheets, reveling in their neatly organized and easily sorted rows and columns. He still remembers sitting at his early Apple computer, collecting and curating information on any and all subjects. “I just thought: ‘Wow, data is a way to answer really interesting questions,’” Elbaz says.


He cultivated this skill for decades and eventually parlayed a childhood obsession into Applied Semantics, a business he sold to Google for $102 million. The company’s main product was AdSense, a contextual advertising tool that now accounts for some $13.6 billion in revenue for the tech giant.


Now, after serving as a Google engineering director for four years, Elbaz is working on technology he hopes will have similarly far-reaching effects on the way businesses utilize data. Founded in 2008, his new company, Factual, aims to build the largest set of location-related data in the world. That hasn’t exactly made the business a household name, but while keeping a low profile among consumers, Factual has simultaneously accrued a long list of big-name customers, including the likes of Yelp, Bing, and Samsung, who use Factual’s location data to make their own products more robust and intelligent for users.


‘Every industry is going to have to play this new game, or ultimately disappoint users.’


In creating this hub of data, Elbaz hopes to breed a new generation of apps that can adapt and react to where a user is in the world. “With location, you can understand people’s patterns, figure out what they like, where they go, what they do, what they’re going to do,” he says. “Every industry is going to have to play this new game, or ultimately disappoint users.”


Factual’s mission is both risky and technologically complex, pitting the company against so many other businesses, from Foursquare to that great purveyor of data itself, Google. Both Google and Foursquare offer APIs that give developers access to location data. And yet, developers who use those APIs also run the risk of competing with Google and Foursquare for users and ad dollars. Services like Bing and Yelp, for instance, aren’t likely to get data from Google, because, as Elbaz points out, “Google sees them a competitor.”


Factual avoids that tension, because it has no consumer product. Instead, Elbaz says, “we want to become the neutral data network that everyone can work with and trust.”


In a way, Factual represents the next stage in the evolution of how tech companies use data. Over the years, companies like Google have developed sophisticated ways of mining data, and smaller developers have been all too happy to utilize what information they were given. And yet, Factual argues that developers shouldn’t need Google to filter and spoon feed data to them. They should have direct access to it on their own. And so, Factual wants to turn the data itself into the product.


“Everyone’s been talking about coming up with tools to mine the big data,” says Danny Rimer, a partner at Index Ventures, which contributed to Factual’s $25 million funding round, “but we believe another big opportunity will be in datasets themselves.”


A Familiar Opponent


This is not the first time Elbaz has competed head on with Google. Before launching AdSense, the team at Applied Semantics was working on a meaning-based search engine that searched not only for certain words on a webpage, but also for related words, something Google hadn’t yet mastered in its early days.


The Applied Semantics system would understand, for instance, that if a user searched for vegetarian restaurants, he might also be interested in vegan restaurants, because they have a tight relationship. The technology worked well, but when it came to beating Google, Elbaz admits, “we lost that badly”


And yet, this vast trove of related words became a fundamental part of building AdSense, which matches ads to the context of a webpage. Now, Elbaz sees Factual as the analog version of that tool. Thanks to the proliferation of mobile technology, it doesn’t just matter what people are looking at online, it matters where they are in the world when they’re doing it, too.


“If you want to personalize an app, and we think all apps should be personalized, you have to know your users, and location is the best way to know your users,” Elbaz says.


Predicting Truth


Today, Factual has data on 75 million locations, which include businesses, public parks, and other points of interest, in 50 countries. And while the information Factual collects on these locations is rather simple—things like phone numbers, addresses, and hours of operation—the process of amassing all that information is anything but. Elbaz and his team spent two years prior to launch building the database—and building the technology that builds the database.


Factual analyzes billions of data points everyday, working with hundreds of businesses around the world, who willingly share their data with Factual. Yext, for instance, is a company that helps small business marketers manage their company listings online. It shares accurate data on hundreds of thousands of its small business clients.


The system also crawls the web to find publicly available data, but according to Elbaz, gleaning accurate information from all that is one of the toughest parts of the job. Phone numbers can be incorrect, addresses incomplete, and in many foreign countries, the listings, themselves, are non-existent. “The single most difficult thing of all is, how do you build an algorithm that can predict truth?” Elbaz says.


In many countries, where data is unreliable, Factual works with people on the ground to build what he calls “gold standard databases.” These people will manually build a database of, say, 100 restaurants in Japan. Factual then tests its algorithms against those databases. “If our algorithm can automatically come up with the same answers that humans can, that means they’re working,” he says. For Factual, this type of hardcore vetting is an absolute must, says Rimer. “In order to do this effectively, you have to provide a comprehensive service,” he says. “It’s not good enough to serve up information and have it not be right.”


Unlimited Opportunity


Maintaining this level of quality assurance may prove to be a challenge as the company scales—and scale it most certainly will. According to Elbaz, Factual presents a bigger opportunity than even AdSense, a product, mind you, that now rakes in nearly a quarter of the revenue for one of the biggest businesses in the world.


“The fact that we can examine the kinds of people who enter businesses and make determinations about what’s going on there, and do that for any location on earth, means there’s unlimited information to be stitched together,” Elbaz says.


For now, companies like Yelp and Bing are using Factual’s dataset to expand internationally. Meanwhile, startups are using it to make their apps more intelligent. Shopular, for one, serves users coupons, based on which stores are nearby, a service that co-founder Tommy Tsai says might not have been possible without Factual. “Early on, we were thinking about building our own location database, and it became clear to us after we looked at Factual’s data that we wouldn’t be able to achieve nearly the same quality as Factual,” he says.


Factual also offers technology that not only pushes location data to companies, but takes data from those companies and turns it into demographic information on their users. So if, for instance, a user is frequently at a location Factual recognizes as a driving range, Factual might label that user a golfer.


Do We Want to Be Followed?


The company is now integrating with mobile ad exchanges, enabling brands to target their ads not only to a specific region, but also to golfers, shoppers, commuters, and dozens of other population segments. “All of this can be done without knowing anything about who they are, their email address, or anything that’s privately identifiable,” Elbaz says. “The app collects the information. We’re simply in the background helping these companies make sense of the information they already have.”


Of course, whether the information is anonymous or not, Factual’s work still brings up an interesting question: do consumer’s want to be followed all the time? Factual’s grand ambition is to enable apps that are smarter, more attuned to our needs, and able to predict what we want before we want it. But as companies like Factual enable apps to become ever more personalized, will consumers embrace the change, or find it all a little too creepy? Do people really want the future Factual’s creating?


The answer to that is anyone’s guess, but Elbaz has a prediction. “The line of what’s creepy will change so dramatically,” he says. “A few years from now, what you’re worrying about today won’t be thought about for a second. People will share 10 to 100 times more information. You’ll have health monitors tracking your every heartbeat and that will be shared with apps. We’ve only seen the beginning,” he says. “But it certainly requires that apps are the good guys.”



A New Concept for Shape-Shifting Architecture That Responds to Heat




With few exceptions, the buildings we occupy are rigid and stationary. This is generally a good thing. After all, no one wants an office tower toppling over with a big gust of wind. But what we gain in stability, we lose in flexibility and adaptability. As buildings become smarter and more responsive to their internal environment, it stands to reason that the architecture should be somewhat responsive, too. The problem is, that’s not exactly easy to do.


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Architects have long explored the value of adaptive architecture through conceptual projects (we’ve seen it with tensegrity structures like this one modeled after the behavior of slime mold). A project from three students at Barcelona’s Institute for Advanced Architecture of Catalunya continues that exploration by looking at how physical spaces could someday morph based on various environmental inputs.


The project, Translated Geometries, tackles the idea by developing a new use for Shape Memory Polymers, a composite material that can deform and return to its original state when activated by cues like heat, humidity and light. In its proposal, the team (Ece Tankal, Efilena Baseta and Ramin Shambayati) created a modular component that expands and contracts based on temperature. The idea is that by attached a SMP joint to a tessellation of material (in this case plywood), you can expand that component’s surface area to four times its original footprint.


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Exposing the SMP to heat above 60 to 70 degrees Celsius causes the material to become flexible enough to undergo geometric deformations. The material then cools into its new rigid form. Apply another round of heat and it will return to its original memory state. In this case, the team decided on an origami-inspired shape that folds inward and outward. You watch as heat is applied to the SMP and the structure begins to twitch, unfolding to an almost spider-like appearance. “You can reuse the same material intelligence embedded in the building to help with different scenarios or needs,” explains Shambayati. “This is similar in principle to the shape-shifting material MIT developed, though MIT’s foam and wax prototype is meant for robotics and doesn’t have nearly the strength to support an architectural form.”


Its benefits might be hard to grasp as a concept, but adaptable modular components could save on material by serving dual purposes. Not to mention, the team added, the concept could be used to make molds instead of the architecture itself. Regardless, it’s a step toward what Shambayati describes as “an architecture that isn’t so rigid, that tries to be more attuned with its environment.” Right now, the team is still developing the concept and exploring how different composites would react to the level of stress a system like this would introduce (which is a lot due to the bending, twisting, heating and cooling required). “Someone came up with the term ‘material empathy,’ says Shambayati. “They said they felt bad for the material and all the stress we were giving it.”


So for now this is a concept, and an interesting one at that. Will we someday see this principle applied to architecture? “That depends on what you consider architecture,” Shambayati says. “Maybe your apartment buildings won’t be transitioning quite yet, but something like pavilion? I don’t think that’s too far fetched.”



Fresh Data Hints at How to Close Biking’s Gender Gap


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Sascha Kohlmann | CC BY­ND



Sascha Kohlmann | CC BY­ND


<I WOULD START BY TELLING US, AT LEAST BROADLY, WHAT THE FINDINGS FOUND AND HOW THEY MIGHT BE USED TO GET MORE PEOPLE ON A BIKE. WHAT YOU’VE GOT AS YOUR CURRENT LEAD READS MORE LIKE A NUT GRAF>


A new study on the gap between the number of men and women who bike offers a fresh look at the circumstances in which the gender disparity has shrunk or disappeared over the past decade. Without attempting to explain why women in general bike less than men, it’s research that could help advocates better target their efforts to get more women in the saddle.


It is well known that women bike less than men do, but it isn’t clear why. To help un-muddy the waters, Jessica Schoner and Greg Lindsey at the University of Minnesota dove into a pile of fresh data on who’s biking around the Twin Cites, and how often. Their findings, presented in the paper “Factors Associated with the Gender Gap in Bicycling Over Time,” provide a more detailed understanding of where that gap exists, and could help those trying to close it.


The data come from the 2010-2012 Travel Behavior Inventory, a collection of studies on travel patterns conducted every 10 years by the Twin Cities-based Metropolitan Council. Data was self-reported by members of more than 14,000 households who kept a travel diary for a single day. Schoner and Lindsey compared the 2010 numbers with those from 2000, when respondents first had the option of listing cycling as a mode of travel. Although Schoner concedes “there are a lot of limitations to this study,” its conclusions are useful because they reveal where the gender gap is more or less pronounced.


The researchers turned up three especially interesting findings. The first is that in single-bicyclist homes, men are roughly twice as likely as women to ride. But when you’ve got two or more cyclists living together, that gap disappears. That could be because living with a cyclist encourages people of any gender to starting biking, or because people who enjoy cycling end up in the same home through marriage or friendship. “I don’t know what direction causality goes,” Schoner says.


The second finding is that among people who rode at least once on the day they kept their travel diary, there is no gender gap when it comes to the number of trips taken that day. In other words, women who ride do so just as frequently as men. “This suggests,” Schoner and Lindsey write, “that much of the remaining gender gap can be attributed to a participation gap, not an intensity gap.”


Finally, the 2010 data shows that having kids doesn’t lead to people biking less. That’s a change: In 2000, a parent was only half as likely to be a cyclist as a non-parent. There’s no gender difference here, but because women bear the greater burden when it comes to childcare, it’s encouraging news for those working to shrink the gender gap. “The relationship between having children and bicycling is complex and unclear,” Schoner says, but “having children may be becoming less of a barrier to bicycling over time.”


Schoner wouldn’t interpret the data to offer recommendations for getting more women into cycling, but for those working to close the gender gap, or just to get more women biking in general, it helps to have a more nuanced picture of the data. Outreach efforts, based on this research, would be more effectively targeted at women who don’t bike at all than at those who already ride. And maybe there’s a way to use the “contagion effect of living with a cyclist” as an advantage—though forced cohabitation may be a bit much.



Angry Nerd: I Can’t Remember Why, But Movies About Amnesia Are Awesome


In the new thriller Before I Go to Sleep​, Nicole Kidman plays a woman who’s grappling to remember what happened in her past. Much like it has for the memory loss films that came before it, Sleep’s amnesia plot works. Why? Because it puts the protagonist on the same level as the viewer. Angry Nerd is here to explain. Unless he forgets.



PayPal’s Support Is the Best Thing That Could Happen to Bitcoin



Fairly or not, bitcoin still has an image problem. For every VC who extols the innovative power of the digital currency, pop culture still sees it as a way for the paranoid cyber-libertarian to shop for black-tar heroin on the Silk Road. All the more reason, then, that bitcoin fans should rejoice that, in a move announced Monday at Techcrunch’s Disrupt conference, PayPal is supporting the crypto-currency on its Braintree payments platform. When the internet’s most mainstream brand for moving money embraces a technology, it’s hard to see that system as a fringe operation.


Not that you’ll be buying Beanie Babies on eBay with bitcoin just yet. For non-financial tech nerds, Braintree is a startup bought by PayPal last year that creates tools for software developers to easily integrate payments into apps and websites. Instead of being shuttled off-site or out-of-app in the manner of the traditional PayPal payment flow, everything happens in-app, in exactly the way individual developers want. In supporting bitcoin—an increasingly popular currency driven by open source software running across a worldwide network of machines—Braintree is allowing developers on its platform to effectively flip a switch and add bitcoin to the payment methods they accept.


‘It’s still very much cutting edge, but it’s past bleeding edge. A lot of the things that needed to be solved for are solved for.’


In other words, it will still be up to a merchant whether or not to accept bitcoin. PayPal users won’t be able to open up their digital wallets and add bitcoin the way they would a credit card or cash from their bank accounts. But considering some of Braintree’s most prominent merchants include hot startups such as Airbnb and Uber, chances are good that many more people who never thought to pay with bitcoin will start to see it as an option.


“We think this has come far enough that it’s still very much cutting edge, but it’s past bleeding edge,” Braintree CEO Bill Ready says of bitcoin. “A lot of the things that needed to be solved for are solved for.”


Not Just Gold 2.0


Ready contends that not so long ago, both merchants and consumers lacked any easy way to make use of bitcoin. He cites regulatory and user experience concerns, both of which he says Braintree has overcome through partnering with Coinbase, a startup that has turned paying online with bitcoin into a very PayPal-like experience. Much like clicking on a PayPal button will take you to a page where you enter your username and password to pay, paying a Braintree-backed merchant with bitcoin will mean entering your Coinbase credentials to access your bitcoin wallet.


Coinbase co-founder and CEO Brian Armstrong says the Braintree integration is just the latest signal that bitcoin is maturing into a genuine currency for buying and selling, not just a speculative investment. “We want to build a new efficient payment network for the whole world,” he says, “not just gold 2.0.”


Beyond the increased visibility and opportunities to pay using bitcoin, the Braintree support is also significant as a measure of mainstream corporate interest in the preferred currency of anti-corporatists. If Braintree were still a purely independent startup, supporting bitcoin would seem like a given, a way gain cachet among early adopters and venture capitalists bullish on the crypto-currency’s potential. eBay-owned PayPal, however, is a division of a publicly traded company valued at the last closing bell at more than $67 billion. On the surface, PayPal doesn’t need to dabble in bitcoin at all to sustain its business.


The Right Ingredients


But Ready says betting on bitcoin now is a lot like betting on mobile commerce three or four years ago. People shopping on their phones back then was a very small part of the online shopping market. But that percentage has grown, and Braintree was able to ride that wave to its current success. Coinbase has only 1.6 million users compared to PayPal’s 150 million, according to figures from both companies. But getting into bitcoin now means gaining the opportunity to start figuring out how to work with a new payments system while that system is still new.


That kind of deep integration gives Braintree a competitive advantage if bitcoin moves toward the mainstream. It also allows Braintree itself to become an agent of that mainstreaming, a trajectory that can only help bitcoin shed whatever remains of its fringe reputation. Ready, who describes Braintree’s support as PayPal’s “first foray” into bitcoin, says the move was a conscious decision by the PayPal leadership to work more closely with bitcoin.


“Bitcoin as a protocol, where there’s an alternate way to move money separate from the legacy payments infrastructure that’s built up over decades—that I think is more interesting even than bitcoin as a currency,” Ready says. “It’s still early days, but we think there’s enough of the right ingredients there.”



The Father of Net Neutrality Is Running for Office—And He Could Win


Tim Wu, a candidate for New York lieutenant governor, talks to reporters outside the state Capitol on Thursday, Aug. 28, 2014, in Albany, N.Y.

Tim Wu, the father of net neutrality and a candidate for New York lieutenant governor, talks to reporters outside the state Capitol in Albany. Mike Groll/AP



It’s eight o’clock on a muggy night in New York, and Tim Wu is winding down the worst day of his political career. He’s slumped over a small table inside his unofficial campaign headquarters: the Pushcart, a cafe where you can get slow-bar coffee, maple water, and kombucha.


Wu is a most unlikely candidate for lieutenant governor, running against a former one-term congresswoman named Kathy Hochul who’s vying for the Democratic ticket alongside big-name gubernatorial candidate Andrew Cuomo. Wu is upset his opponents won’t even acknowledge that he exists. As the man who invented the notion of net neutrality, a concept that seeks to give everyone equal access to the power of the internet, Wu is an idealist, and he wants to argue the issues head-on. But that’s not happening.


Both Wu and Hochul were invited to a debate last Wednesday at NY1, a New York all-news cable station, and Hochul didn’t show. “One of the codes of their campaign is they never even mention my name,” Wu says.


This is a standard political tactic, but Wu wants to change it. In a way, it’s a continuation of his ongoing fight over net neutrality—which pushes up against the practices of venerable cable TV and telephone companies—he wants to reshape how the old guard operates, taking a cue from last century’s trust-busters like Louis Brandeis and Teddy Roosevelt. “If you go back to the 1912 platform of the Progressive Party, they say that the number-one problem is an unholy alliance between a corrupt government system and big business,” he says. “That’s us. That’s our problem right now… I’ve been there and I’ve watched it first hand in net neutrality or merger reviews.”


Wu believes New York’s lieutenant governor could be a new kind of public advocate, someone who illuminates problems facing the state. Here are two of his favorites: Corruption and, none-too-surprisingly, the planned merger of Time Warner and Comcast, which could significantly affect the future of net neutrality.


“The lieutenant governor position is basically what it was in colonial times,” he says, noting the job was first created so the state would have a stand-in while the governor was traveling out of state back in the days before railroad. “No one thought to update it. That’s what I’m doing.”


His campaign is yet another example of the tech world’s efforts to reform politics—a push that began with presidential candidate Howard Dean in 2003 and reached a new apogee with the successful campaigns run by Barack Obama. “This is the beginning of a new political force,” says Wu’s running-mate, gubernatorial candidate Zephyr Teachout. She met Wu a decade ago, while she was an organizer on the Howard Dean campaign, and picked him this year as a running mate because of his tech pedigree. “Internet policy is social policy. Internet policy is economic policy. Internet policy is the policy that defines how people get to work, how people get work, how people get social benefits,” she says. “It has to be a central part of a campaign.”


Over the past week, Wu’s campaign has run into more than a few roadblocks, and with New Yorkers turning out at the polls today, his wonderfully idealistic crusade could soon end. But it has already been a success on some level. Two weeks ago, The New York Times endorsed Wu, saying he could be a “new voice to counter Albany’s entrenched players.”


Political Creativity


In his dark corner at Pushcart, Wu, a 42-year-old Columbia University professor, looks more like a coder than anything else. Hunched over a MacBook, wearing grey jeans and a black t-shirt, he’s dashing off email, planning the day ahead, and reading the latest campaign coverage. Earlier that Wednesday morning, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio endorsed Hochul, and when Wu heard the news, he felt nauseous. He hadn’t expected the state’s most famously liberal politician to side with his opponent, and that’s what has him down. “I though he’d sit it out,” Wu tells me later. “It’s basically a betrayal of progressive principals.”


Wu goes over his upcoming media appearances with his campaign manager, Nona Farahnik, a tireless 28-year-old lawyer. Like seemingly everyone affiliated with the campaign, she is a former student with no political experience, a whip-smart true believer in Candidate Wu. Their greenness makes Wu’s run against Hochul and Cuomo—one of the state’s savviest politicians and the son of former New York Gov. Mario Cuomo—all the more audacious. “Creativity is said to be overrated in politics, but creativity is what we’ve got,” Wu says.


It’s an attitude that has served Wu pretty well in the past. In the early ’80s he collected comics and spent Wednesday afternoons playing Dungeons and Dragons with science fiction writer Cory Doctorow at an alternative elementary school in Toronto. “It was kind of a school where the geeks ruled,” Wu remembers.


After taking a law degree, he moved west in the late 1990s to make his fortune as a marketing executive with Riverstone Networks, a Silicon Valley firm that sold some of the networking hardware needed to build the internet. With Riverstone selling routers that Chinese internet providers used to block traffic on their networks, the experience left him jaded, and after some encouragement from his mentor, Larry Lessig, he laid out his insights on what he saw as a growing threat to the internet’s well-being. Wu and Lessig worried the increasingly commercial internet could end up giving up on a principal that had previously allowed it to flourish. He called it “net neutrality.”


Five years later, Wu wrote another paper, outlining a consumer-friendly version of what the mobile phone industry could be. This helped inspire Google and its Android mobile phone strategy. “Tim helped us catalyze a strategy,” Google head of special initiatives Chris Sacca told Businessweek at the time. “He’s a singular force in this space. You’re just seeing the start of what he’s going to accomplish.”


The Campaign That Feels Like a Startup


As he bops around Manhattan, working in cafes and subway cars, Wu’s campaign feels a bit like an early stage tech startup getting ready for a VC pitch meeting. But instead of a product, he’s pitching an upgrade to the largely ceremonial role held by New York’s lieutenant governor.


Cuomo and Hochul may not even acknowledge him. And de Blasio and other members of the Democratic Party establishment may have moved against him. But in the wake of The Times endorsement, the New York press has taken interest in his campaign, and Wu has become a very real problem for Cuomo. In today’s primary election, Democrats will vote separately for their governor and lieutenant governor nominees. Thanks to a sudden surge in publicity, it’s conceivable that Cuomo and Wu—not Hochul—could wind up on the Democratic ticket in November’s general election.


To be sure, Cuomo is widely expected to win the democratic nomination—a late-July poll found 78 percent of New York voters hadn’t even heard of Wu’s running mate, Zephyr Teachout—and the fundraising gap is enormous. Wu and Teachout have raised less than $1 million, while Cuomo-Hochul has topped $35 million. In a state known for machine politics, Cuomo is a master player.


But Hochul, a native of Buffalo, doesn’t have the same voter recognition. And progressive are put off by some of her past, conservative votes. She first gained attention in 2007, as one of 13 county clerks that refused to go along with Eliot Spitzer’s plan to issue drivers’ licenses to illegal immigrants. Four years later, she ran for Congress in a district that stretches from Buffalo to Rochester. Beating the odds, she won. But this is a new race—and with no public polling data available, it looks like it could go either way.


Can Politics Be a War of Ideas?


The day after his night at the Pushcart, Wu stands addressing the press in front of a Manhattan vocational school, He challenges Cuomo and Hochul to say his name. They won’t acknowledge his existence because standard campaign logic says that the front-runner would only feed long-shot challengers by entering into debate, but for Wu, that’s making a “mockery of this primary process.”


A cynic would call Wu disingenuous, but this almost naive demand for the kind of politics we discover in civics class is central to Wu’s campaign. He sees his run as wide-eyed experiment in American democracy. Can politics ever be a war of ideas?


Much as Thoreau retreated to the solitude of Walden Pond to “live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life,” Wu says he’s entered politics to learn what is really there. “I threw myself into this campaign to see what was there in our political system and see how it might work. And if I end up dissatisfied with it or satisfied with it, at least I would know.”